President Johnson: : He is against it. He's … he's against any program, and I think they're just going to stay on there with the relief. I told Phil Landrum yesterday morning—he said some of the southern boys were upset about the states' rights angle.2 And I told him to write an amendment that would take care of them and leave it up to the governor, where he could veto any project that they wanted to develop.
President Johnson: : First of all, we can't have any unless they initiate it, unless it's started in the state. But if some school superintendent or some mayor had one that he didn't like, the governor could veto it, and we'd have to submit them to him before we could put them into operation—give him 30 days. My governor John Connally of Texas said that would take care of any of their problem.3 I thought that would help us with the southerners, and—
Hardy: : I think it will help some, but I don't believe it's going to provide the answer. Now, I talked … I talked about this thing at some length with Sarge Shriver the other day, and I told him some of the things that were particularly bothering some of us in the South. I don't know whether there's much that can be done about one or two aspects of it.
Hardy: : But anyway, I'm trying to find … trying to find answers, and I hope it's so that I can go along with it, but I don't mind telling you, I'm … I just don't know what to do with it. I've had a lot of resistance from in my own district to it, and a good bit of it comes from the official family down there, and …
President Johnson: : What is their objection, Porter? What can we do to—
Hardy: : Well, I don't know what you can do about it, but some of the city people say that this proposal to contract direct with private organizations would completely bypass the local governmental organizations.4 And they are really very much concerned about that aspect of it.
President Johnson: : Well … suppose I told you this: that I won't let them contract with any private organization in your district you don't approve of.
Hardy: : Well, that might help them some, but …
President Johnson: : Let that be your— your project.
Hardy: : Well, I don't know whether that would—whether that would meet the problem or not, but that is one of the things that's worrying them.
President Johnson: : Well, if that's, if that's—what I need is, I don't want 40 or 50 of my Democrats, good Democrats, right here two months before—just a week before my convention and two months before my election to go off with Charlie Halleck and let him beat me by five or six or seven, eight votes.
Hardy: : Well, say, I tell you, those of us who are going off are not going to be going off to be going with Charlie Halleck.
President Johnson: : No, but that—if I get beat, it's going to be like … well, like the paper says this morning. New York Times says, "Plan goes to House today with Johnson's future in doubt. Faced with almost solid Republican opposition and enough southern support … "5
Hardy: : I think it's going to have …
President Johnson: : What he's going to do is beat me, and it's the only bill that I've got my name on, and I don't want to lose it. I want to do whatever I need to do to get some of my good friends like you to kind of help me, and I'll make it up and protect them, and …
Hardy: : Well, Mr. President, you know, you've got so damn much on you … I—
President Johnson: : I just can't take a headline saying that the House—after I got it through the committee, I got every Democrat that heard it—19.6
Hardy: : Well, you've got so damn much on you that actually … when you go to trying to handle these kind of little things like you're talking about, why hell, you just can't physically do it.
President Johnson: : No, but what I can do is this: I can lay down the law to Sargent Shriver that in—what's the number of your district in Virginia?
Hardy: : Mine's the 2nd District, but now, you know—
President Johnson: : Now, wait just a minute. That there's no—whatever objections you've got to it—that there's no project started in the 2nd District with any private organization that hasn't got your initial on it—or mine.
Hardy: : Well, now, let me tell you. Now, I appreciate that, and I know that you're absolutely sincere about it.
President Johnson: : I've just got to—I've just got to … I've just got to—
Hardy: : But you remember our little discussion on the cotton bill?7 You probably don't; you've had so damn many of these things.
President Johnson: : Yes, I do. Yes, I do.
Hardy: : Well, you don't know what hell's happened since then. And you don't know the kind of spot that I've been put in because of the very damn reduction in forces that I talked to you about that was effective on July the 20th.8 And you don't know what the hell kind of reaction I got, just—and I'm not blaming you, don't misunderstand me—because, hell, this is little stuff, and you can't get into every damn little thing. But some of your boys that you've got over there didn't do a hell of a lot to help me out on it.
President Johnson: : Well, I tried to. I asked them to please not affect any of them until after the first of the year.9
Hardy: : Mine became effective on July the 20th, and Manny Celler gets on the floor and announces that—this is a day after, or a day or two after Jacob Javits and Kenneth Keating have come out and say they weren't going to support Barry Goldwater—and announces that the unclear—the RIF reduction in forces in Brooklyn has been canceled, and all of my damn people have just been separated less than a week before.10
President Johnson: : Well, I'm just catching hell on Brooklyn the President's intercom buzzer rings loudly right now, right today. They've got wires and delegations of 40, and Manny Cellers Celler is trying to come in here with 40. I've asked them to hold the damn naval yards until the first of the year, try to make no changes. I see unclear comment by Hardy where a congressman put in the paper every morning that this has happened, that's happened. But I called them over here and asked them to do it, and I'll—
Hardy: : Well, I sympathize with you on this, and, I say, I don't mean to be bitching about it, because I don't know how in the hell you can tend to this little stuff. I really don't.
President Johnson: : Well, I have got a busy … little thing last night. I got to bed at 2 A.M..11 But I'll tell you this: If I get defeated on the only thing I recommended in my own name... I've passed Kennedy's bills; but I can help pass a dead man's bills.
Hardy: : Well …
President Johnson: : But if I can't pass a one—and the only person I know to talk to in your delegation is you and maybe Thomas Downing, it might help me.12 I don't know. But if I can get over this hump …
Hardy: : If I can do it and get—
President Johnson: : I'll guarantee you on my word of honor that I'll write a memorandum and give you a copy of it that not anything is put in your district or done in your district—private or public—that you don't approve of—period. Just like you handle your postmasters. And I'll personally take enough interest, if I have to come, by God, to Norfolk myself to see that you don't suffer from it. I'll be here four years, and I'll help make it up with interest.
Hardy: : Well, I'll tell you what's fact: I want to go along—
President Johnson: : But don't you let Charlie Halleck and that crowd rub my nose in it.
Hardy: : I want to go along with you in the worst way in the world, and I'm going to do it if there's any way that I can see how in the hell I can justify myself before my people.
President Johnson: : Well, I'll justify it. I'll be here four years, and I'll guarantee to make you look good with interest before your people. But don't you let me look bad in the eyes of the world of getting beat on the only damn bill I submitted. And you just watch it and find some way to do it, and go talk to Phil Landrum, and if I have to get an amendment, well, let me know about it. And try to help me get over this one, and then you can vote against Appalachia and ARA and any other damn thing you want to.
Hardy: : Well, I'm, I'm …
President Johnson: : But get you plenty of good economy votes, but on this one, it's going to be five or ten votes difference, and Phil Landrum has got it doctored up now. And help me, because I don't want the world to say, well, I got defeated by a solid Republican vote and 40 of my own Democrats.
Hardy: : Well, John McCormack got on me just a few minutes ago, and I—
President Johnson: : I ain't getting on you. I love you, and I know you're going to help me any way you can.
Hardy: : If I can do it, I will. But I, frankly, I'm going to have to get some answers to some questions, and I'm going to try to do it tomorrow.
President Johnson: : Well, you sit down with Phil Landrum and get him to help you, and then anything you want me to do, I'll do, Porter. But don't let me get beat on it, partner.
Hardy: : I appreciate it, and if I can do it, I sure will.
President Johnson: : Don't say to anybody I called you. Just keep it this way. But you call me and tell me anything you think I need to do that'll be helpful.
Hardy: : I tried to get to see you for three damn weeks.
President Johnson: : Well, hell, I never heard of it.
Hardy: : I know you didn't, but your damn boys didn't tell you. Finally, I said—
President Johnson: : Why didn't you call me?
Hardy: : Well, God, you don't do that.
President Johnson: : Well, I do do it, and I … You know: You've seen me work; you know I've been down there; you know what I do. And I'm up nearly every night until 2 or 3 o'clock.
Hardy: : I know it, and I don't want to make your worries any worse.
President Johnson: : Well, do you want to see me now?
Hardy: : No, not right now, because I think the damn thing is out of hand. I don't know what the hell to do with it. I spent some time trying my best to figure the damn thing out with the Navy this morning. But when Henry Wilson called me yesterday, what he proposed to do would have made the goddamn thing worse.13
President Johnson: : What was it?
Hardy: : Oh, it's just this daggone RIF that I'm talking about.
President Johnson: : Yeah, well, what did he propose to do?
Hardy: : Well, he was going to have me to write a letter to the Secretary of the Navy, and he was going to give me back a mealymouthed reply, and Henry said they were getting greased up, and I said, "For God's sakes, that's worse than what Manny announced on the floor." So it was going to make me look silly. Why in the hell didn't he know what the hell he was doing?14
President Johnson: : Well, I don't know, but he was here when I came here, and I've got lots of problems—
Hardy: : I'm not fussing about Henry particularly, but, I mean, he just don't think these things through. He didn't think that one through.
President Johnson: : I haven't thought it through. What can we do about it, Porter?
Hardy: : I don't—frankly, I don't know right now, because the thing is really out of kilter. And I've got to sell you some way to get the goddamn thing back on the reservation.
President Johnson: : What have they done?
Hardy: : Well, they've got this RIF; it's just occurred. They canceled the Brooklyn RIF right after mine had taken effect. I got another RIF going on, on a damn installation that adjoins my own home. It's— you know, I'm going through hell, but it's all right, and these things will just have to work themselves out. I don't want to tie them up with this poverty thing, because they're not related. But I'll do … I'll see what I can do with this. If I can, I would love to be on your side.
President Johnson: : Well, if you will, let me know, and if you want me to go over there and see them or get them over here with you in my office, I'll be glad to do that.
Hardy: : I surely might.
President Johnson: : Please see— can you help me with Downing any?
Hardy: : I talked to Downing just a few minutes ago.
President Johnson: : I just need you to—
Hardy: : And he's still on the fence too. He's in pretty much the same shape I'm in. He hasn't got his mind made up, and I don't know what he's going to do. And I, frankly, am not sure what I'm going to do. I'm trying to go with you.
President Johnson: : Thank you, my friend. Thank you.
Hardy: : Bye.