White House Operator: : Thank you.
Dwight D. Eisenhower: : Yeah, fine, thank you. Hello?
Office Secretary: : One moment, please. Thank you.
Eisenhower: : Thank you. Intercom buzzes several times and President Johnson talks in the background before picking up the receiver.
President Johnson: : speaking aside Unclear. Don't you ever let me get unclear. Unclear bill passed 43-42. We just got by with a unclear only thing we've got in the world that saves us unclear. It's not worth anything, there's no reason, because Byrd . . . Byrd hadn't ever been talked to . . . just voted, because he believes that way—and I kind of believe that way, too. I think somebody ought to veto these damn fool community action programs. Don't you put any money in community action. Just cut it down. Hear that? Just cut that down—I'm tired of these political organizations going out and trying to run a unclear. to Eisenhower Hello? Yes, General.
Eisenhower: : Why, I just wanted to tell you this, sir. Yesterday, in a little press conference, I made a remark that I was puzzled by this statement that Ambassador Arthur J. Goldberg had made about the refusal to go ahead with the fight on the dues question. Now, this afternoon the ambassador came up to see me and I just wanted to tell you, that he gave me the whole background of the darn thing, I think, in terms of very great depth, and I was quite satisfied that he—it was—and I told him, that I would not only . . . if questioned again on this thing, would not only say that I had no criticisms to make, but that I believe that under the circumstances that there probably was no other course to take. So, I just wanted to tell you that, while it might look that for the moment, it was nothing on my part, nothing but really, lack of understanding. And he made it very clear to me.
President Johnson: : Well, I appreciate that. They want to get us in a fight, and they're not going to do it, as far as I'm here. They came in this morning, and said that you said that sometime when I referred to some letter that you had written expressing our views on helping people to help themselves, that that didn't include military, and therefore I was trying to kind of play it shady or something. And I asked Bill Moyers, and I just told him to reply to it this way, and he did, because I know how you feel about your country and I know how I do, and the only body I like as much as I do you is your brother. And here's what he says: "Well, there seems to be a difference developing, between the President and Gen—Mr. Eisenhower, about the nature of our commitments. As you know, the President cites a letter that General Eisenhower wrote. Mr. Eisenhower says today that his letter was mostly in terms of aid, not military aid. Can you speak, Mr. Moyers?" That's the press secretary, James C. Jim Hagerty. Incidentally, he's been down here, and he's been of a great deal of help to us. I think, trying to be loyal to you and trying to help me. Here's what Moyers says: "The President doesn't feel that there is any difference between former president Eisenhower and himself. He thinks that his purpose, and the purpose of the administration, is the same as the purpose of President Eisenhower and the Eisenhower administration in regard to Southeast Asia, and that is, to preserve the peace, and to present to the world a face of unity and a policy of harmony as far as this nation is concerned. The President has often quoted letters that President Eisenhower has written, and he's done so for a matter of historical reference. He has quoted, for example, a letter which the President wrote to Sir Winston Churchill . . ." Let me see where it is . . . This is a . . . I can't find where it's connected. I can . . .
Eisenhower: : Well, as a matter of fact, that message itself is absolutely correct. The only thing they asked me, they said—did you—reason is they're always trying to say, you know, that the military plans—People that don't know a damn thing about the military business think that a military plan has to start somewhere and, of course, it does. But they wanted to say that I started a military plan. I said, "Now, let's make no . . . mistake here. The conditions of today are vastly different from those from '55. President Johnson acknowledges. But if you look up my record, I constantly said, 'We are going to support Vietnam.'" Now, in those times—in those days, when we'd just recently signed—no, we didn't sign the treaty, but all the rest of the nations did, except South Vietnam and ourselves—and that treaty had certain measures that precluded real military positioning of troops there, except in terms of advisers, and we did that. Now, when I left—when I was in my last year there, we had about 365 advisers, and I think we run it up to about 600, because of the big size of the country. But, I did say, constantly, "We are going to support . . . Vietnam," but at that time it had not come to a military unclear.
President Johnson: : That's exactly right. General Earle G. "Bus" Wheeler—
Eisenhower: : Unclear by reasons, which are beyond your control and mine, the damn thing did become military.
President Johnson: : That's right.
Eisenhower: : Particularly during the two or three years before you came in.
President Johnson: : That's exactly—
Eisenhower: : And I have constantly said, "In the condition that it is today, I support the President consistently and fully."
President Johnson: : speaking over Eisenhower Sure. We know that. We know that. Here's what Moyers says further: "The President has quoted Mr. Eisenhower as a historical indication of the commitment of assistance by the Eisenhower administration, which is the kind of commitment that the John F. Kennedy administration and the Johnson administration believes is necessary to preserve peace. The President was not in the executive branch of the government, is not responsible for the policies that preceded his coming into office, but he does assume, and the only man who assumes ultimate responsibility for our present policy in Vietnam, is the present President. He believes very firmly, as President and Commander-in-Chief, that the responsibility for our policy there is his. On a slightly different note, the President personally has had the highest regard for President Eisenhower's advice, has considered, since he assumed office on November 22, '63. President Eisenhower has been a tower of strength to him personally, and a very helpful adviser on more than one occasion. That he, the President, does not intend that any division come between himself and President Eisenhower. And, in fact, so far as the White House is concerned, and employees of the White House are concerned, anyone who tries to provoke a reflection on General Eisenhower will definitely not be around here very long. Eisenhower laughs. The President sees no division between himself and the former president Eisenhower, and I repeat, and he doesn't consider any effort by anyone else to get General Eisenhower to provoke such division as serving the national interest." Laughs.
Eisenhower: : Well, of course, that's very flattering, a very strong paper. I, actually, this is just the . . . the newspaperman, that he thinks he can get something. You see, now even he asked me the question. I didn't think of it at that time as one that was trying to show that I was different from anybody else. He just asked me what my commitment was. President Johnson acknowledges. I said, "Well, there was no military problem at that moment. We, my God, we just signed—everybody else just signed a treaty." We so . . . we were suspicious of this treaty and we would not sign it.
President Johnson: : That's right.
Eisenhower: : But I did say, time and again, both in support of the MSA appropriations, but in two or three other statements, it's a matter of the record, the statements, or the public papers, that we were going to support South Vietnam. And I still—
President Johnson: : Well, General Wheeler said in the letter the other day that you wrote in '54 to Churchill, and the letter that you wrote to Jim, that 10 years later, 11 years later, that he hopes his documents look that good, and I do, too, and I'm just afraid mine won't look that good in 11 weeks, much less 11 years.
Eisenhower: : Well, I'll tell you, I think you're doing all right.
President Johnson: : We're doing the best we can. Laughs.
Eisenhower: : General Marshall once said to me, "Well," he said, "General, if you just win a big victory," and he never did pay compliments right to a man's face, but he said, "Well, so far you're not doing too badly." Both laugh. Well . . . So, I wouldn't let them worry me, Mr. President.
President Johnson: : They're not, they're not, they're not.
Eisenhower: : I mean, after all, you know, no one in the international field can be popular everywhere, President Johnson acknowledges throughout there's always a lot of people going—know all the answers. And I had my share of it, I assure you. And so I told them yesterday, I said, "One reason that I support the bipartisan approach, and so gladly will give unclear my experience to the President, whenever he wants it, my—whatever counsel I can is because I learned the hard way, by golly, President Johnson laughs how difficult it is to keep this kind of—"
President Johnson: : Yes, it sure is.
Eisenhower: : If you read the New York Times or some, President Johnson continues chuckling back there about 1955, well, by golly, I'll tell you—
President Johnson: : If you hadn't have been born in Texas, and hadn't had Samuel T. Sam Rayburn and Lyndon Johnson, old William F. Bill Knowland might have run over all of us. Both laugh.
Eisenhower: : No, not Knowland. He had his limitations.
President Johnson: : Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes.
Eisenhower: : Well, I just wanted to tell you, that I was very . . . well, I say, but I think that the reasons given are very cogent, and they're ones that probably can't be talked about, at least at this time, not all of them, but I can still honestly, can say, as I see it done now, why, there's nothing else could have been done.
President Johnson: : Well, I appreciate it very much, and I appreciate your calling me, and I'm going to lean on you in the days ahead.
Eisenhower: : Well, as I say, pay no attention to these darn polls.
President Johnson: : I won't, I won't. When you feel like eating a dinner, let me know, and I'll get some of these roughneck friends of ours together.
Eisenhower: : I'll do that.
President Johnson: : OK.
Eisenhower: : Thank you.
President Johnson: : Bye.