President Johnson: : Bill?
J. William Fulbright: : Yes.
President Johnson: : You got anything to talk to me about?
Fulbright: : What?
President Johnson: : You got anything to talk to me about?
Fulbright: : Yes, all sorts of things. What do you have in mind?
President Johnson: : Well, just anything you want to talk to me about. I want to talk to you.
Fulbright: : Well, I don't want to bother you, but if you've got a minute.
President Johnson: : You don't bother me. I always feel a little better after I talk to you. I learn something.
Fulbright: : [Chuckles.] I wish that were so. Well, one thing I want to talk to you about is—the immediate thing brewing—is the [John F. Kennedy] cultural center matter. I sent Mike [Mansfield] a memorandum out that he should bring to you this morning.
President Johnson: : I think he's got it in his hand.
Fulbright: : Oh. I had talked to Stephen, and I imagine you know all I know about it. I talked to Feldman. I talked to Pat McNamara, who's chairman of the committee, and we're just kind of pushing it along. I hope the time is right—
President Johnson: : I think what you ought to do is take this bill that . . . Has he talked to you about the matching [funds] thing?
Fulbright: : Yes.
President Johnson: : I think that's the one that'll do it. I'd take that as an amendment to your bill, and see what you can do with it. I told Larry O'Brien to check out those committee members, so we would make a tribute to him [Kennedy] and not a . . . running-out on him.
Fulbright: : Well, I talked to Pat about the general idea and I told Mike [Feldman] today, that, of course, anything you-all wanted in the way of an amendment, it was under way, and he needn't substitute.
President Johnson: : That's right.
Fulbright: : Whatever was agreed on that you wanted done.
President Johnson: : All right.
Fulbright: : Matching up to a maximum of 25 million [dollars] is what I understood you wanted.
President Johnson: : Yeah. What I think we ought to do is be very careful that we do not let some people think that we're using his name to raid the Treasury to do something for the District of Columbia that they otherwise wouldn't do.
I told Larry O'Brien to check it out with the authorizing committee—McNamara and Buckley—and check it out with the Appropriations Committee, and then see what we could stand and how far they'd go, and then let's go.
But he hasn't given me a report. I'll ask him that in the morning. I want you to come in and see me in the next two or three days. How are you getting along on foreign aid?
Fulbright: : Well, you know, our conference was interrupted [by the Kennedy assassination], but we were doing all right, and then we resume tomorrow afternoon. It'll come out about 360 [million dollars].
President Johnson: : That's good.
Fulbright: : And there's two important amendments I wanted you to have a look at: Yugoslavia—
President Johnson: : Yeah. Yeah.
Fulbright: : —and the population control.
President Johnson: : Yeah. Yeah.
Fulbright: : I told you, the way we talked about the population control preliminarily, the only one of the House members—all Senate members are all right—the only one who could block it. I think they'll come around on that.
And not a word was said about that, I may say, in the debate. Nobody—there were 63 amendments and not a one of them was related to it. I think, though, that they all are reconciled that this is the wise thing to do. It's really unusual . . .
President Johnson: : All right. I'll have Larry O'Brien keep in touch with you about the cultural center, depending on what he hears.
You keep in touch with us, and let me know what happens on your conference on your foreign aid, and let me know anything else that I need to know. If I don't hear from you I'll know that you've got everything taken good care of for me. [Chuckles.]
Fulbright: : Well, I think that conference committee report is going to come out. There are about three things on it.
President Johnson: : Yeah.
Fulbright: : The damage was done by Morse in the Senate.
President Johnson: : Thats good.
President Johnson: : Yeah. It looks like to me our administration of this Alliance for Progress is in pretty bad shape. And it looks like to me that the OAS [Organization of American States] is in bad shape. Looks to me like that we need some good leadership in both those fields. I wish you'd think about some real top young fellows that might help us.
Fulbright: : Well, now, I didn't know whether you were ready to talk about next year's foreign aid bill or not. I want to talk to you about that whenever you have time to talk about it.
President Johnson: : Well, I'm not right now, but I want to before long. I want to make a little better study of the thing.
Fulbright: : Yes. I have talked to several people about some ways to avoid this kind of a fight. We've got 100 secretaries of state over there now. Every one of them want to sit on the [Foreign Relations] Committee. A major part of that from that kind of attack is surrounding the administration with so many restrictions that they just can't operate.
President Johnson: : Yeah. That's right. One of the problems is the personnel over there. They've got a bunch of vacancies in AID [Agency for International Development]—the assistants. If you know any good administrators, I'd like to know them.
Fulbright: : They're hard to find—you know that.
President Johnson: : Yeah.
Fulbright: : My God, I can't even keep a staff. Somebody's always raiding my staff. I lost another good man. I lost two. I lost my AA [administrative assistant]. They're all coming in. They pay them more than we pay them.
President Johnson: : Well, I would like to take some of them away from you myself.
Fulbright: : Christ, I'm just down to the bone. Of course, Marcy is on leave. They just hired away Yingling from me and had him—
President Johnson: : Who in the hell did that?
Fulbright: : The bankers.
President Johnson: : Oh, to hell with them.
Fulbright: : Christ, they pay them $35,000. We can't pay them but 16[000].
President Johnson: : Well, that's terrible.
Fulbright: : He's got three children. He just can't afford the committee.
President Johnson: : Is Betty still living with you?
Fulbright: : Yeah. Just barely.
President Johnson: : Give her my love.
Fulbright: : Sure will.
President Johnson: : And I—I wish you'd tell me what you think we ought to be doing in Cuba.
Fulbright: : I don't think you ought to stir that up any. I think this election sounds good, from what I heard of it today, in Venezuela. I think the goddamned thing ought to be let alone, that is the bulk of it. I think if you stir it up, I think it's going the wrong way for them—
President Johnson: : Well, they're shipping arms all over the damned hemisphere.
Fulbright: : That we ought to stop!
President Johnson: : All right.
Fulbright: : I thought you meant about going into Cuba.
President Johnson: : No. I'm not getting ready to . . . any Bay of Pigs deal, I'm just—
Fulbright: : That's what I thought . . .
President Johnson: : No, I'm just asking you what we ought to do to pinch their nuts a bit that we're not doing.
Fulbright: : I think—
President Johnson: : Why don't you give me a one-page memo on what you'd do if you were president about Cuba?
Fulbright: : [Laughs.] You mean, exclusive of any direct interference?
President Johnson: : No, I mean what you'd do if you were president about Cuba, inclusive or exclusive or anything. Just what you'd do. And get your good brain to working. I'd like to look at it and see.
Fulbright: : Well, I better wait until I get this foreign aid out of my hair.
President Johnson: : All right. Now, what about Vietnam?
Fulbright: : Well, I just think that is a hell of a situation in there. I . . . involve a lot more talk, but I'll be goddamned, I think that's hopeless.
That is for what you would call a complete victory. [Unclear] we got this [unclear] man, this fellow, Minh. I'm not really enough aware of the new characteristics of it, but I think the whole general situation is against us as far as a real victory goes.
Fulbright: : I think that this idea of some kind of a semineutralized area in which they'll keep out—by that I mean the Chinese about taking it over, and we're going to have to draw in our forces—I think is about the best we can hope for.
You don't want to send a whole lot more men in there, I don't think. I think I'd give this new man [Duong Minh] a chance to see what they can do for a little while. I wouldn't do anything that you can't—
President Johnson: : Why did you send Lodge out there, for God's sake?
Fulbright: : Huh?
President Johnson: : Why did you send Lodge out there, for God's sake?
Fulbright: : [Pauses.] I can't tell you that. That was a political move.
President Johnson: : Mm-hmm.
Fulbright: : [Unclear.]
President Johnson: : I just think he's got things screwed up good—that's what I think.
Fulbright: : Well, I think that's an awful hell of a situation. Some things you can't do anything about unless you want to go all out, and I don't believe we want to go all out in that kind of a situation. We had that up about Laos, you remember.
President Johnson: : Yeah.
Fulbright: : Everybody voted against it.
President Johnson: : Yes, that's right.
Fulbright: : [Unclear.] I'm glad we haven't got 30,000 troops in Laos, bogged down in a damn war there. Those damn places are not worth it, in my opinion.
President Johnson: : OK, my friend. God bless you and I'll be talking to you later. Come in and see me when you get a moment.
Fulbright: : OK. Well, anytime you have a moment, we'll get our thoughts together on it. I have been so preoccupied with foreign aid, as you have—
President Johnson: : Spend some time on Cuba for me.
Fulbright: : OK.
President Johnson: : A little bit on Vietnam, too.
Fulbright: : Well, they're complicated—
President Johnson: : What would happen if I moved Lodge?
Fulbright: : I wouldn't do it right away.
President Johnson: : We'd miss . . . We'd—
Fulbright: : I don't know. You see, I'm not current on the exact situation. But just for political reasons and otherwise . . . I think he was put there partly for that, in order to conciliate the opposition.
President Johnson: : Who does he satisfy?
Fulbright: : Well, I assume some elements in the Republican Party. There are some of them. I assume that was the reason. I wasn't consulted about that appointment.
President Johnson: : OK, my friend. Good night.
Fulbright: : OK.