LBJ and Richard Russell on Vietnam

Though Johnson had awoke on May 27 to news that Indian prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru had died of a heart attack, the bulk of his day would be dominated by the problems of Southeast Asia.

Just prior to 11 a.m., the President placed a call to his friend, mentor, and sometime antagonist, Senator Richard Russell of Georgia. In this conversation, Johnson reveals his deeply conflicted thinking on Vietnam, a profound sense of anxiety absent from his public remarks on the subject. The exchange offers an intimate and revealing portrait of Johnson weighing perhaps the most difficult decision he ever had to make.

Date: May 27, 1964
Time: 10:55
Participants: Lyndon Johnson, Richard Russell
Conversation Number: WH6405.10 #3519, #3520, #3521

Media player

0:00 / 0:00Speed: 1x

(Operator): Hello?

(Richard Russell, Jr.): Pretty good. How are you Mr. President?

(President Johnson): Oh, I've got lots of troubles. I want to see what you-

(Richard Russell, Jr.): Well, we all have those.

(President Johnson): What do you think about this Vietnam thing? What--I'd like to hear you talk a little bit.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): I, frankly, Mr. President, if you were to tell me that I was authorized to settle as I saw fit, I would respectfully decline to undertake it. It's the damn worst mess that I ever saw, and I don't like to brag. I never have been right many times in my life, but I knew that we were gone to get into this sort of mess when we went in there. And I don't see how we're ever going to get out of it without fighting a major war with the Chinese and all of them down there in those rice paddies and jungles. I just don't see it. I just don't know what to do.

(President Johnson): Well, that's the way I have been feeling for six months.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): It appears that our position is deteriorating, and it looks like the more we try to do for them, the less they're willing to do for themselves.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): It's just a sad situation. There is no sense of responsibility there on the part of any of their leaders, apparently. It's all just through generations, or even centuries, they've just thought about the individual and glorifying the individual, and that's the only utilization of power is just to glorify the individual and not to save the state or help other people. And they just can't shed themselves of that complex. It's a hell of... a hell of a situation, it's a mess. And it's going to get worse, and I don't know how or what to do.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): If... I don't think the American people are quite ready for us to send our troops in there to do the fighting. And if it came down to an option of just sending Americans in there to do the fighting, which will, of course, eventually end in a ground war and a conventional war with China, and we'd do them a favor every time we kill a coolie, whereas, if one of our people got killed, it would be a loss to us. If it got down to that or just pulling out, I'd get out. But then I don't know. There is undoubtedly some middle ground somewhere.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): If I was going to get out, I'd get the same crowd that got rid of old Diem to get rid of these people and to get some fella in there that said we wish to hell we would get out. That would give us a good excuse for getting out. I just... it's a... I see no terminal date or, boy oh boy, any part of that in there.

(President Johnson): How important is it to us?

(Richard Russell, Jr.): It isn't important a damn bit.

(Edit.)

(Richard Russell, Jr.): Well, I don't know, we don't look too good right now. And, of course, you'd look pretty good, I guess, going in there with all the troops, sending them all in there, but I'll tell you it'll be the most expensive adventure this country ever went into before you-

(President Johnson): I've got a little old sergeant that works for me over at the house and he's got six children, and I just put him up as the United States Army and Air Force and Navy every time I think about making this decision and think about sending that father of those six kids in there. And what the hell are we going to get out of his doing it? And it just makes the chills run up my back.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): It does me. I just can't see it.

(President Johnson): I haven't got the nerve to do it, and I don't see any other way out of it.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): It doesn't make much sense to do it.

(President Johnson): I just couldn't wait-

(Richard Russell, Jr.): The key is, it is one of these things where "heads I win, tails you lose."

(President Johnson): Well, think about it, and I'll talk to you again. I hate to bother you, but I'm just-

(Richard Russell, Jr.): I wish I could help you. God knows I do, because it's a terrific quandary that we're in over there. We're just in the quicksand up to our very neck. And I just don't know how, what the hell's the best way to do about it.

(President Johnson): I love you, and I'll be calling you.

(Richard Russell, Jr.): I'll see you soon.