811–3

Conversation No. 811-3

Date: November 1, 1972
Time: Unknown between 3:04 pm and 3:08 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Henry A. Kissinger.

Greetings

Arnaud de Borchgrave
-Recent lunch with Kissinger
-Support for the President
-Possible meeting with President
-De Borchgrave’s physical appearance
-Vietnam War
-Recent trip to Hanoi, Saigon
-Hardline stance
-Newsweek
-Article
-Abram Chayes
-Harvard University
-George S. McGovern
 -3-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Vietnam War
-Settlement agreement
-US victory
-North Vietnamese troop withdrawals
-Reasons
-Rebuilding, control
-Problems
-Saigon
-Ellsworth F. Bunker

Vietnam War
-Saigon
-Nguyen Van Thieu
-Possible letter to Pham Van Dong
-Recent statement
-Attack on the President
-Bunker
-Contacts with Thieu
-Cables
-Memoranda
-Settlement agreement
-De Borchgrave’s view
-Newsweek editorial staff
-News summary
-Philadelphia Bulletin article
-[Adrian Lee]
-Possible role in administration
-Hamilton Fish Armstrong
-Article [“Isolated America,” in Foreign Affairs, October 1972]
-Patrick J. Buchanan
-Kissinger’s possible memorandum
-Timing
-1972 election
-Medal of Freedom
-Kissinger’s memorandum
-Fish’s retirement
-Liberal establishment
-Medal of Freedom
 -4-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

John Cardinal Krol entered at 3:08 pm.

Greetings

Krol
-Meaning of name

Press , photographers, and Stephen B. Bull were present at the beginning of the meeting.

Photograph session
-Seating arrangement

[Photograph session]

-[General conversation]
-Warsaw

Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 3:08 p.m.

Refreshments
-Coffee, tea, Coca-Cola, consumme

Sanchez, Bull, the press and photographers left at an unknown time before 4:02 pm.

Krol’s trip to Poland, October 12-17, 1972
-Stefan Cardinal Wyszynski
-Health, spirit
-Role
-Background as university professor
-Marxism
-Sociology, economics
-Poland-Soviet Union relations
-Kremlin
-Poland leadership
-Central committee
-Scapegoating
-Effect of Krol trip
-The President’s 1969 trip to Poland
-William P. Rogers’s role
 -5-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Timing
-Itinerary
-Rationale
-Possible US letter
-Roman Catholic Church
-Nationalism
-Prevention of 1966 trip to Warsaw by US bishops
-Egon Bahr’s [?] alleged role
-Conditions
-Travel agency
-Number of visitors
-Public reception
-Emotion
-The President’s trips
-Romania
-Wreath laying

Poland
-Spiritualism, nationalism
-Compared to Romania
-Previous partition
-Political anecdotes
-Examples
-Wyszynski’s conversation with unknown official
-Promotion of socialism, control of religious activity
-People’s Republic of China [PRC] hypothetical declaration of
war on France, Romania, Poland
-Responses of respective countries
-Krol’s trip to Siekierczyna
-Krol’s father
-Receptions
-Meeting with young girl
-Road paving
-Commissionar
-Warsaw
-Lvov
-Church
-Attendance
-Roman Catholic Church
 -6-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Relations with government
-Wyszynski
-Compared to Joseph Cardinal Mindszenty
-British commentator’s 1956 article
-Martyrs and cardinals
-Conversation with Krol in Cleveland in 1948
-Martyrdom
-Hungary

US-Poland relations
-Trade
-Tone
-Anti-communism
-Polish-American, Ukrainian-American, Russian-American groups
-The President’s view
-Youth
-Russian, Poles
-Communications
-Liberation policy
-Soviet Union
-Military presence in Poland
-Future
-Communications
-Polish trade
-East
-Polish communism
-Communist Party
-Independence
-Western orientation
-Soviet Union
-Agriculture
-Cooperatives
-Private ownership
-Advantages
-Compared to Ukraine
-Weather conditions
-Government Concessions
-Soviet communists
-Trade
 -7-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Deficit
-Balance
-Advantages
-Poland independence from Soviet Union
-Polish people
-Polish government
-Edward Gierek
-Polish government
-Fear of Soviet Union
-The President’s relationship with Gierek and a [Piotr Jaroszewicz]
-Compared to Polish government relationship to Soviet Union
-Ties with US
-Polish Politburo
-Soviet Union
-Geography
-Access to information
-Polish people

Krol’s trip to Poland
-Krol’s speech at Auschwitz
-Christianity
-Love of God, neighbor
-Deaths
-Catholics, priests, Jews, gypsies, Hungarians
-Unknown book
-Christianity
-Love
-Absence of conditions
-Murder of Polish officers by Soviets [Katyn Forest Massacre]
-Love of God, neighbor
-Wreath placement
-Maximilian Kolbe
-Plaque
-Jews, gypsies

Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 3:08 pm.

Refreshments
-Coffee
 -8-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)


Sanchez left at an unknown time before 4:02 pm.

-Jesuit Church
-Jesuit deaths
-Sanctuary for Jews
-Incident
-Warsaw Ghetto
-Wall
-The President’s trip
-Jews
-Murder by Germans

World War II
-Jews
-Unknown book
-Peter Krol
-Marriage
-Penalty
-Protection by Gentiles
-Penalties for aiding, sheltering, feeding, clothing, selling

Krol’s visit to Poland
-Krol’s conversation with seminary director
-Auschwitz
-Attendance

Poland
-Roman Catholic Church
-Recruiting for seminaries
-Faith

Krol’s trip to Poland
-Arrangements
-Unknown people, places
-Reception

The President’s schedule

Vietnam negotiations
 -9-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Settlement agreement
-Krol’s statement
-National Conference of Catholic Bishops
-Requests for prayers
-Private talks, July 19, 1972
-North Vietnamese proposals
-Nguyen Van Thieu resignation
-South Vietnam army, police
-US economic, military aid
-Vietnamization
-Release of prisoners
-South Vietnam negotiations with Vietcong [VC]
-Coalition government
-Coalition government
-The President’s proposals
-May 8, 1972 proposals
-Cease-fire, release of Prisoners of War [POWs], troop withdrawals
-South Vietnam self-determination
-Publicity
-US fear
-George S. McGovern’s possible claims
-October 8, 1972 breakthrough
-The President’s May 8, 1972 proposals
-Thieu retention
-US economic and military aid
-South Vietnam army
-Size
-PRC
-Soviet Union and PRC
-Influence of North Vietnam
-Private channels
-Kissinger’s conversations, correspondence with Anatoliy F. Dobrynin
-Settlement agreement
-South Vietnam
-Political prisoners
-Coalition government
-National Council of National Reconciliation and Concord [NCRC]
-Elections organization and supervision
-Thieu
-Veto power
 -10-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Power
-Coalition government
-Liberal Democrats’ view
-North Vietnam’s view
-[Pham Van Dong’s] interview with Arnaud de
Borchgrave of Newsweek
-Laos and Cambodia
-North Vietnam troop withdrawals
-Cease-fire
-Laos
-Souvanna Phouma’s recent meeting with the President
-Phouma
-French language, manners
-Gen. Charles A. J. M. de Gaulle
-North Vietnam
-Recovery
-US aid
-Compared to Japan
-Hard work, expansionism
-US aid
-Coalition government
-Territorial control
-VC
-South Vietnam government
-Thieu’s relations with US
-US military
-B-52s, F-4s
-Residual forces
-South Vietnam military
-Army
-Comparison with North Vietnam
-Air Force, navy
-US economic and military aid
-Air Force
-Number, quality
-Dependence on US
-Gen. Creighton W. Abram’s, Jr.’s comments
-US presence in South Vietnam
-Compared to Europe, South Korea
-Congressional aid
 -11-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Vietnamization
-Alternative
-Continuation of war
-Post-1972 election
-Duration
-Effect on US
-Thieu
-South Vietnam, VC, North Vietnam deaths
-US relations with Soviet Union, PRC
-Thieu
-Possible perception
-North Vietnam
-Resilience
-North Vietnam intentions
-Cambodia and Laos
-Infiltration of South Vietnam
-Pause
-Mao Tse-Tung
-Effect of US mining, bombing
-Desire for US aid
-Soviet Union and PRC
-US withdrawal
-Costs of war
-Thieu’s relations with US
-Public statements
-Nationalism
-Complexity
-North and South Vietnam
-US role
-Mediation
-Terms
-Quality
-Future of war
-South Vietnam
-Remote areas
-Montagnards
-North Vietnam
-Protracted war
-US bombing
-POWs
 -12-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Thieu
-Conversation with Kissinger
-Victory in war
-US withdrawal
-Victory
-Control of population
-Army
-Police
-VC
-Prisoners
-Demoralization
-Popular support
-Elections
-National legislative
-Thieu
-US terms
-POWs
-Cease-fire in Indonesia
-Cambodia and Laos
-Coalition government
-South Vietnam self-determination
-Election
-Arrangements
-Communist participation
-Thieu
-US options
-Thieu
-Breakdown of negotiations
-US public opinion
-Media, opinion makers
-Thieu’s retention
-Quality
-De Borchgrave
-Recent lunch with Kissinger
-Newsweek
-Recent trip to Hanoi
-View
-Newsweek
-Victory
-Substance
 -13-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Thieu
-US withdrawal
-POWs
-Effect on Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia
-The President’s policies
-“Intelligent” opinion
-Compared to popular opinion
-Peace with honor
-South Vietnam self-determination
-Discouraging aggression, evil
-Impact on Soviet Union
-US mining, bombing
-Impact on PRC
-Impact on Middle East
-Golda Meir
-Total victory
-Nuclear weapons
-Conventional bombing
-Willingness to settle
-North Vietnam
-Compared to South Vietnam
-Details
-North Vietnam
-South Vietnam
-Substance
-North Vietnam agreement
-Marginal changes
-Possible effect on North Vietnam
-Confidence
-Thieu
-PRC, Soviet Union
-Thieu
-Concurrence
-The President’s role
-Possible meeting
-Timing
-Timing
-1972 election
-North Vietnam’s view
-Thieu
 -14-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-1968 election
-1968 bombing halt
-Lyndon B. Johnson
-Hubert H. Humphrey
-Strategy in 1968
-Compared to 1972
-Change in conditions
-Bombing halt
-Humphrey
-Humphrey’s position on Vietnam
-Compared to the President’s
-George S. McGovern
-Presidential support
-Krol’s support
-Request for prayers
-Statement, October 31, 1972
-National Conference of Catholic Bishops
-Press conference, November 1, 1972
-Roman Catholic Church
-Criticism
-Unknown bishop
-Henry C. Cashen, II’s concern
-US public opinion
-Krol’s view
-Politics
-Thieu
-Peace
-Krol’s view

US foreign policy
-Kissinger’s schedule
-Middle East
-Difficulties of settlement
-Comparison with Vietnam

James McGettigan, press, and photographers entered at 4:02 pm.

Greetings

Photograph session
 -15-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Arrangements

[Photograph session]

McGettigan
-Background
-Philadelphia

Presidential gifts
-Golf balls
-Cuff links
-Presidential seal
-Flag

McGettigan
-Role as secretary to John Krol
-The President’s viewing of The Cardinal
-Possible promotion to cardinal

John Krol
-Meeting with the President
-Prayers

Vietnam War
-The President’s policy
-Tone

Krol and McGettigan left at 4:05 pm.

[Unintelligible]

John Krol
-Possible ambassadorship
-Foreign policy view
-Tone
-Roman Catholic Church
-Vietnam War
-The President’s policy

Vietnam negotiations
 -16-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Jan.-08)

Conversation No. 811-3 (cont’d)

-Thieu
-Emissary
-Settlement agreement
-October 8, 1972
-Hypothetical US “stonewalling”
-Publication of terms
-1972 election
-McGovern
-Cease-fire
-Troop withdrawals [from Laos, Cambodia]
-POWs
-Thieu
-Dealings with administration
-Emissary
-Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
-Abrams
-Haig
-Kissinger
-Haig
-Delivery of letter
-Return to US
-Letter
-Legal palaver
-Adm. [John S. McCain, Jr.]
-Kissinger’s view
-Haig
-Timing of trip
-Kissinger
-Haig
-Delivery of letter
-Return to US

Kissinger left at 4:07 pm.