877-001b

Conversation No. 876-13/877-1

Date: March 12, 1973
Time: 4:40 pm - 6:34 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Jeremiah A. Denton.

[CONTINUED FROM OVAL 876]

[An unknown portion of this conversation was not recorded while the tape was being changed.]

[The recording began at an unknown time after 4:40 pm.]

Vietnam War
-December 1972 bombings
-Melvin R. Laird [?]
-Options
-Fighter bombers compared to B-52s
-Weather
-Window of opportunity
-Possible losses
-Laos [?]
-Decision
-Adm. Thomas H. Moorer
-Losses of B-52s
-Timing
-Flying patterns
-Targeting
-Moorer
-Christmas halt
-President’s telephone call to Henry A. Kissinger
-Resumption of bombing
-Moorer
-Resumption of bombing on December 26, 1972
-Intensity of attacks
-Denton’s experience
-Bombing decisions
-Public relations [PR]
 -2-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Reasons
-End of war
-“Maximum force”
-End of war
-“Uneasy peace”
-South Vietnam
-Military strength
-Morale
-Viability
-Aid to North Vietnam
-Leverage
-Bombings
-Debriefing for President
-Joseph [last name unknown]
-Cabinet
-Prisoner of war [POW] Reactions
-Denton’s leadership
-B-52s
-Integrity
-Prayer for President
-Effect on North Vietnam
-Military tactics
-Shock
-Explanation to Denton
-Explanation of escalation tactics
-Effect on willingness to fight
-Use
-Effect on combat
-Conduct of the war by John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson
-Gradual escalation
-1968 campaign
-President’s criticism
-Use of power
-POWs
-Perception of December 1972 bombing
-Effectiveness
-Senior officers [?]
-Appreciation
 -3-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Release of POWs
-Recordings
-Denton’s prediction
-May 1972 blockade
-Pressure in September
-Offer of release
-Publicity
-Basis for Vietnam settlement
-October negotiations
-George S. McGovern
-Position on withdrawal, POW
-Immorality
-North Vietnam
-Release of POWs
-Conditions
-US withdrawal
-Aid to South Vietnam
-Nguyen Van Thieu
-Overthrow
-Aid to Cambodia
-Thailand
-1972 election
-Compared to Harry S Truman-Thomas E. Dewey Campaign, 1948
-Vietnam settlement
-Newspaper predictions
-Impact on negotiations
-Communists
-POW release
-Denton's prediction
-Impact of December bombings, blockade
-Blockade, mining, bombing
-Aerial attack
-Rail lines
-Estimates of success
-Congress’s role
-Kissinger
-Return to Paris
-North Vietnam’s positioning
 -4-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Message
-New negotiations
-Conditions
-Vietnam settlement
-December bombing
-Timing
-Congress’s role
-Democratic caucus
-Partisanship
-Cut funds to South Vietnam
-US withdrawal
-POWs
-Impact on negotiations
-Kissinger
-President's resolve
-Compared to Congress, public, cabinet
-Denton’s opinion
-Planning
-Adm. Thomas H. Moorer’s role
-Melvin R. Laird’s role
-President's role
-Compared to Dwight D. Eisenhower, Lyndon B. Johnson
-Intensity
-1972 summer
-Mining, blockade
-US-Union of Soviet Socialist Republics [USSR] summit
-Election
-McGovern
-Weather
-Peace
-Moorer’s recommendations
-Bombings
-Laird’s opposition
-Failure to press bombing
-Reports
-Impact on negotiations
-Opposition to President's policies
-Softness
 -5-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-President's concern for presidency
-Personal feelings
-President's background
-Quakers
-Pacifism
-Evils of war
-Slavery
-Stakes of war
-Denton’s letter
-US character
-US foreign role
-Responsibility
-Leonid S. Brezhnev, Chou En-Lai, Mao Tse-Tung
-US presidency
-Strength and respect
-Nuclear weapons
-Polaris
-Poseidon
-Trident
-Impact of American \"Bug-Out\"
-Respect for People’s Republic of China [PRC]

US Foreign policy
-PRC-USSR interests
-President’s public statements
Desire for good relations
-Universities, press people’s appreciation
-President’s meeting with Communist leaders
-Relations with world leaders
-USSR


******************************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3
[National security]
[Duration: 14s]
 -6-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)




NUCLEAR WEAPONS


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3

******************************************************************************


US foreign policy
-PRC-USSR rivalry
-President’s public statements
-Denial of US manipulation
-Compared to public acknowledgement
-President’s meeting with PRC
Reasons
-1972 election
-PRC, USSR support for President
-1960 election
-Nikita S. Khrushchev
-Opposition to mining in Mexico [?]
-John F. Kennedy
-Need for US
-Chou En-lai, Mao Tse-Tung
-PRC’s fear of USSR


******************************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 8
[National security]
[Duration: 10s]


USSR-PRC RELATIONS


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 8
 -7-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)




******************************************************************************


US foreign policy
-PRC-USSR rivalry
-PRC’s military preparedness
-Bomb shelters
-US-PRC relations
-PRC leadership
-US credibility
-Strength
-USSR counterweight
-US withdrawal from Vietnam
-PRC response
-Dependability of US
-President’s meeting with Chou En-lai
-Compared with Japan
-USSR deal
-Rearmament
-US compared to USSR’s influence
-Kissinger’s return to PRC
-North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]
-Europe
-PRC interests
-Counterweight to USSR
-US-USSR relations
-Historical perspective
-USSR’s fear of PRC


******************************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 9
[National security]
[Duration: 13s]
 -8-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



NUCLEAR WEAPONS


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 9

******************************************************************************


-PRC’s population
-US-PRC alliance
-USSR’s relations with Europe
-US-PRC relations
-USSR-PRC rift

Vietnam War
-US blockade, mining of North Vietnam
-PRC response
-USSR response
-President’s visit to USSR
-Summit
-Reception of US
-Meeting with Brezhnev, Nikolai V. Podgorni, Aleksei N.
Kosygin
-Dacha
-President’s quiet diplomacy
-USSR, PRC response
-Public comments
-December 1972 bombing
-USSR, PRC response
-Europe’s response
-Edward R. G. Heath
-Willy Brandt
-Germany
-Canada’s response
-Australia’s response
-Socialist leadership
-US actions
-Private channel communications
 -9-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Kissinger
-State Department
-Cables
-USSR-PRC response

Cambodia
-US actions
-PRC reaction
-US press corps
-Denton’s view
-Conclusion of War in 1965
-Conflict with PRC


******************************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 10
[National security]
[Duration: 2s]


US-PRC RELATIONS


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 10

******************************************************************************


-USSR
-PRC, USSR strategic interests

Vietnam War
-US relations with PRC, USSR
-“Tacit agreement”
-Desire for peace
-North Vietnam actions
-Economic impact
 -10-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-PRC, USSR
-Compared to revolutionary struggle
-Private diplomacy
-President’s intuition
-Response to bombing
-Publicity
-Demonstrations

US foreign policy
-Leadership
-John B. Connally
-International experience
-Compared to President
-World travel
-Latin America, Africa, Middle East, Asia
-1953 visit to Hanoi
-Partition
-Adm. Henry D. Felt
-Military
-Raymond A. Spruance
-Ambassador to Philippines
-Commanders in chief, Pacific [CINEPAC]
-[unintelligible names]

POWs
-Roger Shields
-Airplane
-Reception at home
-Press
-Charges of indoctrination
-Grand-standing
-Status as celebrities
-Example to other Americans
-View of US public
-Compared to baseball, football players
-Possible substance abuse
-Children
-Standard of conduct
 -11-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Patriotism compared to personal life
-Pride of POWs in US
-Interviews with press
-Denton
-Television [TV]
-Norfolk, Virginia
-Question about \"Bud\" Fletcher
-Shields
-Col. Robinson Risner
-US Air Force
-Statement on TV
-Peace settlement in 1968
-Compared to Denton
-Torture
-Amnesty request
- Ho Chi Minh
-Terms of settlement
-[First name unknown] Harrington [?]
-Dignity
-Years in captivity
-Ordeal
-Cooperation with North Vietnam
-Earlier prisoner
-Number
-Senior officer
-Psychological problem
-US Air Force
-US Navy
-Anti-war statement
-Voluntary
-Marina flyer
-Compared to new prisoners
-Treatment of the POWs
-Publicity
-Effect on US aid to North Vietnam
-Changes in treatment
-Denton compared to Risner
-October 1969
 -12-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Impact of President's speech
-November 3, 1969
-United Nations [UN]
-Death of Ho Chi Minh
-Denton's experience
-Camp transfer
-“Soft camp”
-News transcripts
-Conversations with Major Bai [?]
-Head of propaganda, torture program
-Democratic Republic of Vietnam [DRV] policy
-Self-criticism for ill treatment of POW's

Manolo Sanchez entered at an unknown time after 4:40 pm.

Refreshment
-Coffee

Sanchez left at an unknown time before 6:34 pm.

POWs
-Treatment
-Publicity
-Impact on North Vietnam
-Release
-Maj. Bai
-Disappearance
-Protest
-Fast
-Voluntary participation
-Denton’s leadership
-Treatment of POWs
-Effect on morale
-Food, games, exercise
-Removal
-Release
-Meeting of Denton and Col. Robinson Risner
-POWs public statements
 -13-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Treatment of POWs
-Impact on US aid to North Vietnam
-North Vietnamese statement
-POWs cooperation with North Vietnam
-POWs' response
-Publications
-Torture
-Change of treatment
-Geneva Convention
-Military hospital
-Treatment
-Publicity
-Public response
-Aid to North Vietnam
-Denton’s support
-POWs’ attitude
-Public statement
-Briefing
-Timing
-US withdrawal from Laos
-White House event for POWs
-Aid to North Vietnam
-Attitude of POWs
-Compared to Denton

Vietnam
-US policy communism
-Anti-communism
-Post-World War III
-United Nations [UN] mandate
-Franklin D. Roosevelt
-Distractions
-Europe
-Marshall Plan
-Withdrawal
-US and North Atlantic Treaty Organization [NATO]
-Revolution
-Ho Chi Minh
 -14-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-PRC
-Opportunities for peace
-US aid as stimulus
-President's visits
Meeting with Gao Dai, Ngo Dinh Diem
-Ngo Dinh Diem
-Leadership
-Murder
-John F. Kennedy
-Catholicism
-Fulgencio Batista Y Zaldivar
-Cuba
-Latin American dictator
-Alternative
-Communist dictator
-Fidel Castro
-[Manolo Sanchez][?]
-President opinion of people
-Lies
-Cruelty
-Compared to PRC
-Energy level
-Laos
-Energy levels
-Cambodia
-Energy levels
-President’s visit
-Norodom Sihanouk
-Violin
-Thailand
-Energy levels
-Right-side of conflicts
-Wins
-Similar to Switzerland
-Malaysia
-Indonesia
-Relationship with the US
-Kissinger
 -15-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Phan Van Dong
-US withdrawal
-Renewal of conflict
-US aid to North Vietnam
-POW release
-Denton’s view

POWs
-Treatment by North Vietnam
-Publicity
-Leaks
-Public reaction
-North Vietnam compared with Nazi Germany
-Concentration camps
-US reaction

Aid to North Vietnam
-US credibility
-Christian charity
-Denton’s work

US Society and culture
-Changes in U.S.
-Published materials, TV, movies
-Denton’s conversations with Joe Kittinger [?]
-Flyer shoot down in 1972
-X-rated movies
-Degeneracy, moral climate
-Male leaders
-Women
-Youth
-Sexual hang-ups
-Newsweek, Time
-Cover stories
-Marlon Brando's film Last Tango in Paris
-Pornography
-US Supreme Court definition
-Redeeming social value
 -16-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Sales
-First commandment [?]
-Allegiance to country
-Spirituality
-Religion and patriotism
-Clergy
-Berkeley rebellion
-East coast
-1972 campaign
-Hecklers
-Appearance
-Long hair
-Hatred, obscenities
-Movies
-Antiwar demonstrations
-White House
-Numbers
-Press coverage
-TV, columnists
-New York and Washington, DC
-Compared with South, Midwest, and mountain states
-Church attendance
-Urban areas
-Illinois, Ohio, Indiana
-Texas
-California
-Corruption
-Los Angeles, Hollywood, San Francisco, San Diego
-Loss of religious faith
-Necessity of faith
-Principles
-Atheists
-Youth
-Self-hatred, anti-Americanism
-Loss of faith
-God
-Country
-Self
 -17-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Press corps
-Differences of beliefs with President
-Vietnam
-Values
-Honor
-Bill Henry
-Los Angeles Times sports editor
-Columnist
-Radio, TV program
-Window on Washington
-Criticism of Washington press corps
-Ministry
-Protestants and Catholics
-White House church service
-Father [first name unknown] Matthews
-Jesuits
-Conservatism
-University
-Self-hatred
-1972 election
-Students
-Support for President
-Faculty
-Support for George S. McGovern
-Students
-Friends of President
-Ivy League
-Marijuana
-Political establishment
-Robert A. Taft, Arthur H. Vandenberg, Richard B. Russell, Walter George
-Moral decline
-Congress
-Anti-ballistic missile [ABM]
-Vice President's tie-breaking vote in Senate
-Impact on nuclear negotiations with USSR
-Summit invitation
 -18-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



******************************************************************************

BEING WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 5
[National security]
[Duration: 9s]


NUCLEAR WEAPONS


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 5

******************************************************************************


-Opposition in Senate
-Partisanship
-Supporters in Senate
-John C. Stennis
-Harry F. Byrd, Jr.
-Vietnam
-Stennis
-Statement
-Russell
-Bombing decision
-Lack of support
-President’s explanation
-Radio, TV
-North Vietnam
-PRC, USSR
-Compared to May 8, 1972 decision
-Public support
-Settlement
-Leader class
-Denton
-Education
-US Naval Academy, George Washington University
-Compared with President
 -19-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Moral decline
-Labor leaders
-George Meany
-Frank E. Fitzsimmons
-[unintelligible name]
-Strengths
-Farmers, isolationists
-Lower, middle class
-Ethnic peoples
-Italians
-Poles
-Irish
-South
-Patriotism
-Elite class
-Business community
-New York
-Misunderstanding
-Adolph Hitler
-Communism
-Effects of US education
-Weaknesses
-Leader class
-Decline of nations
-Military, economy compared to national character
-Common people compared with leader class
-Greece
-Rome
-Morality
-Compared to Communist nations
-Leadership
-Leonid I/ Brezhnev, Chou En-lai
-Brezhnev’s skill as swordsman
-Puritanical, overzealous attitude
-Graft, corruption
-PRC, USSR
-Leadership class
-Habits
 -20-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-USSR
-Alcohol consumption
-Adultery
-US leadership
-Decline of “Puritan ethic”
-Courage, strength, principles
-President’s talks with business leaders, academics
-Reaction to Cambodian invasion
-Ivy League presidents
-Kissinger
-Harvard University
-Support for President
-Protests on campus
-Professors

POW's
-Example to Americans
-Image
-Frustrations
-Stories
-Potential leadership

Denton
-Book
-US society and culture
-Future plans
-Military service
-Book
-Age
-Military rank
-Leadership steps
-Flag
-Book
-Personal anecdotes
-Format
-Diary
-US moral climate
-Draft on bandages
 -21-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Anti-communism
-Solitary confinement
-Support for President

An unknown person entered at an unknown time after 4:40 pm.

Copy of President’s November 3, 1969 speech

The unknown person left at an unknown time before 6:34 pm.

President's speech

POWs
-Meetings with President

Denton
-Book
-Self-subjugation
-The Lord’s Prayer

An unknown person entered at an unknown time after 4:40 pm.

Delivery of November 3, 1969 speech

President's glasses

The unknown person left at an unknown time before 6:34 pm.

Glasses
-Denton's glasses

President's speeches
-Availability to Denton, other POWs
-Influence over POWs
-Denton’s view of President
-\"Silent Majority\" speech of November 3, 1969
-Denton's brother
-Use of term “Silent Majority”
 -22-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Crank calls to Denton
-President's points in speech
-Vietnam
-Alternatives for US
-“Just peace”
-Negotiated settlement
-Vietnamization
-U.S. withdrawal
-Consequences
-Recriminations
-US role in world
-Confidence in US
-Relief compared to remorse
-History
-President’s problems

Past wars
-[Thomas] Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman
-World War II
-Support of US public
-Cabinet
-World War I
-Abraham Lincoln
-Difficulties
-Mary Todd Lincoln's brothers
-Civil War experience
-Support of Cabinet
-Leader class
-Vietnam
-Support for President
-Public, Congress
-Dwight D. Eisenhower
-Anne Whitman's telephone calls to Vice President
-Problems
-Heart attack
-Political understanding
-Support
-President’s task to cheer up
 -23-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)




Vietnam
-Lack of support for President
-Goals
-Oval Office
-Fate of presidency
-Importance

US as world leader
-Pre-World War I
-Theodore Roosevelt,
-Albert Thayer Mahan
-“Great White Fleet”
-US role
-Pre-World War II
-US leadership
-Compared to Great Britain
-Vietnam era
-Free world leadership
-President’s speech
-1968
-World politics
-Terror, communism
-PRC
-USSR
-Stakes in Vietnam
-Military sacrifice, POWs
-Credibility
-American spirit, character
-Postwar role
-Disarmament
-Public sentiment
-Defense budget cuts
-Dealings with USSR, PRC, North Vietnam
-US strength
-Public support
-Leadership class
-Compared to labor, stenographers [?], farmers, poor
 -24-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. Sept.-2010)
Conversation No. 876-13/877-1 (cont’d)



-Importance
-Opinion makers
-TV, radio, columnists, university presidents, clergy,
businessmen, political leaders
-US withdrawal
-Opposition to war
-Leadership class
-1969 election
-Victory
-Compared to “Silent majority”
-Hardhats, farmers, poor
-Support for President
-Need for leadership
-“Average man”
-Clergy, politicians

US society and culture
-Education
-Respect for teachers
-Religious schools
-High schools
-Press
-Influence
-TV
-Vice President Spiro T. Agnew's statements
-Denton’s interactions
-Consensus

Denton's meeting with President

POWs
-Reception
-Example for President

Presidential gift
-Golf balls

POWs
 -25-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

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(rev. Sept.-2010)



-Reception
-Weather

President's visit to South in the 1940's
-Road trip
-Virginia
-South Carolina
-North Carolina
-Charleston, South Carolina gardens
-Flowers
-Motels

Denton left at 6:34 pm.