Secret White House Tapes

891–4

About this recording

891–4
  • President Richard M. Nixon
  • James B. Stockdale
  • Brent G. Scowcroft
  • White House photographer
April 9, 1973
Conversation No. 891-4

Date: April 9, 1973
Time: 3:31 pm - 4:39 pm
Location: Oval Office

The President met with Adm. James B. Stockdale and Gen. Brent G. Scowcroft. The White
House photographer was present at the beginning of the meeting.

Arrangements for photograph
-17-


NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM


Tape Subject Log

(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)


Vietnam War
-Prisoners of War [POWs]

-Return

-Attitude

-Pride

-Press coverage

-Stockdale’s experience
-Solitary confinement
-Capt. Jeremiah A. Denton, Jr. and Col. Robinson Risner’s experience
-Solitary confinement
-Types

-Organization of POW camps

-Isolation of POW leaders


An unknown person entered at an unknown time after 3:31 pm.

Refreshments

The unknown person left at an unknown time before 4:39 pm.

Vietnam War

-Communist Party organization in North Vietnam

-Qualifications for membership

-Age

-Intellect

-Selflessness

Ability to influence others

-Attitude toward leadership

-Compared with US

-Communist leader class

-Politburo

-Imprisonment by France

-Effects on organization of POW camps

-Propaganda literature

-Experiences

-POW wives and families’ experience

-18-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Stockdale’s wife

-Leadership

-Press coverage

-Divorce rates

-President’s efforts

-Peace groups

-Stockdale’s wife

-Support for President
-Stockdale’s expectations for POW release
-Schedule of releases
-Effects on prisoners
-Morale

-Support for December 1972

-President’s decision
-Cambodia
-November 1969
-Peace demonstrators

-Cambodia operations

-Sanctuaries

-Sihanoukville

-May 8, 1972 decision

-Bombing and mining of Haiphong

-POWs awareness

-Peace negotiations

-1972 election

-North Vietnam’s obstructionism

-December 1972 bombing
-Difficulty of decision
-B-52s
-Adm. Thomas H. Moorer
-Losses
-Laos
-Use of B-52s in December 1972 bombing
-Effects on North Vietnam
-Negotiations
-POW reactions
-Risner, Denton
-19-


NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM


Tape Subject Log

(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Destructive power

-Safety from bombing

-North Vietnamese reaction

-Civilian targets



******************************************************************************


BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1

[National Security]

[Duration: 5 s ]



INTELLIGENCE


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 1

******************************************************************************


Vietnam War

-Use of B-52s in December 1972 bombing

-North Vietnamese reaction

-Hospital

-Press criticism

-Chicago Tribune

-Los Angeles Times

-President’s reasons for bombing

-New York Times

-Senate

-Portrayal of President’s actions

-“Mad bomber”
-Carpet bombing
-Effects on Hanoi
-Stockdale’s knowledge of game theory

-Credibility of threats

-20-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Cyrus L. (“Cy”) Sulzberger’s column
-Cease-fire agreement
-North Vietnam violations
-Withdrawal of troops

-Laos

-Cambodia

-Infiltration

-South Vietnam’s violations

-Sulzberger’s column

-New York Times
-Michael J. (“Mike”) Mansfield

-Congress

-Pacifism

-Europe

-Cambodia

-Thailand and Vietnam

-Authority for President’s actions

-Congress
-Authority for Vietnam intervention

-Gulf of Tonkin Resolution

-National security

-John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson

-Authority for President’s actions

-1970 Cambodia operation

-Protection of US forces

-Violation of Agreement

-Lack of treaty

-Future

-Possible collapse

-Infiltration by North Vietnam

-Possible offensive

-Nguyen Van Thieu’s visit

-Need for US troops
-Congressional reaction

-Capabilities of South Vietnam

-Possible use of US air power

-Targets
-21-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Ho Chi Minh Trail
-Quan Tri area
-Possible impeachment of President
-Spiro Agnew
-Public reaction
Peace with honor
-POWs
-Possible trade for US withdrawal
-Thieu’s government
-Viability

-Coalition government

-Communist government

-Military capabilities
-Resumption of hostilities
-Effect on US public opinion
-Possible use of US air power
-B-52s

-Need for provocation

-Thieu

-Effect of South Vietnam’s collapse

-US public opinion

-South Vietnam’s military capabilities

-People’s Republic of China [PRC]

-Battle of An Loc

-Aid to North Vietnam
-US public reaction to torture
-Compliance with Vietnam settlement
-Withdrawal from Laos and Cambodia

-Reduction of infiltration

-Purpose

-Rebuilding

-Influence

-Necessity

-US Public opposition

-President’s foreign policy philosophy

-Incentives

-North Vietnam’s desire for aid

-22-


NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM


Tape Subject Log

(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Central Committee
-Congressional action

-Request for appropriations

-Stockdale support [?]

-Soviet Union, PRC

-Role in Vietnam settlement

-North Vietnam

-Primitive Communism

-Soviet Union, PRC

-Technical experts

-Surface to air missile [SAM] sites


******************************************************************************


BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2

[National security]

[Duration: 6 m 50 s ]



POW CAMPS


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 2

******************************************************************************


Vietnam War

-Stockdale’s experiences

-1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident

-US air operations

-North Vietnamese patrol boats
-Oil refinery
-Stockdale’s role
-August 4 operation
-US press coverage
-23-


NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM


Tape Subject Log

(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Potential effect of Stockdale’s role on his prison
experience
-Adm. Wesley L. MacDonald
-Western Pacific [WESTPAC]
-North Vietnamese patrol boats
-Lack of sightings
-US destroyers
-Lack of certainty
-Debriefing
-Messages from USS Turner Joy
-Wing commander

******************************************************************************

BEGIN WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3

[National security]

[Duration: 5 s ]



COMMUNICATION CAPABILITIES


END WITHDRAWN ITEM NO. 3

******************************************************************************


Vietnam War

-Stockdale’s experiences

-1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident

-US air operations

-North Vietnamese patrol boats

-August 4 operation

-Messages from USS Turner Joy

-North Vietnamese patrol boats

-Lack of sightings

-Visit by Assistant Secretary of Defense

-24-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-McDonald
-Verification of patrol boat sightings
-August 5 operation
-Stockdale’s knowledge
-Exploitation by North Vietnamese
-Press coverage
-Life, New York Times
-Cara Weiss
-[unintelligible name]
-Congress, press
-Possible headline
-August 4 operation
-USS Maddox
-North Vietnamese patrol boat
-Lack of sightings
-Potential damage to US
-Antiwar movement
-Stockdale’s knowledge
-Cora Weiss
-Jane Fonda
-W. Ramsey Clark
-North Vietnam propaganda
-Stockdale’s wife
-Strength

-Virulence, bitterness

-President’s 1968 campaign

-Hecklers
-Stockdale’s conversation with unknown man

-Respectable intellectuals

-San Diego

-Stanford University

-Stockdale’s graduate studies

-Political orientation

-Philip H. Rhinelander

-Thomas A. Bailey

-Scholars at colleges and universities

-Conservative political orientation

-25-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Elite schools
-Stanford University
-Ivy League
-Law schools
-Opposition to war
-President’s meeting with Ivy League presidents
-Cambodia
-May 8, 1972 decision
-Mining and bombing of North Vietnam
-Federal Bureau of Investigation [FBI] [?]
-Elite press
-Television [TV] and radio
-Reasonable press
-James S. Copley
-George Randolph Hearst, Jr.
-Scripps-Howard
-Dallas Morning News
-Columbus newspaper
-Southern newspapers
-Leader class
-Downfall of civilizations
-Common people
-Reliability
-Corruption of leaders
-Weakness

-Great Britain

-France

-Germany

-Neo-isolationist view in US

-America First

-World War II

-Patriotism

-Disarmament sentiment

-Trident

-Antiballistic missiles [ABM]

-Troop withdrawals from Europe

-Soviet Union
-26-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Eastern bloc

-Withdrawal from Asia

-Dismantling of fleet

-Focus on domestic problems

-Responsible class

-Role in World War II

-Japan

-US preparation

-Support of eastern international set

-Role in Korean War

-Invasion by North Korea

-United Nations [UN]

-US role in world affairs
-US burden

-World War I

-World War II

-Korean War

-Vietnam War

-Comparison with Great Britain

-World War I casualties
-Neo-isolationist view

-Intellectuals

-Clergy

-Business community

-Press

-Cambodia

-Cuts in defense budgets

-Spending on ghettos

-Leadership of free world
-Avoidance of fear

-Japan

-Europe

-Soviet Union

-Superpower

-Aggressive intentions

-PRC

-Future superpower

-27-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Population
-World conquest
-US role in world affairs
-Importance for peace
-US relations with Soviet Union, PRC
-Negotiation, confrontation
-Vietnam settlement
-Avoidance of dishonor, humiliation
-Bugout from South Vietnam
-US public frustration
-Korean War
-Second class power status
-Leader class
-Resolve of American people

-Labor unions

-Farmers

-Small businessmen

-Wall Street

-Support for President

-1972 election

-Press endorments

-Support for George S. McGovern

-Isolationism

-Withdrawal from Vietnam

-McGovern’s shortcomings

-Mistakes

-Competence

-Effects of lack of resolve on lower class, youth

-Education

-Press

-Political speakers

-Peaceniks

-US dedication to peace

-PRC

-Dangers of war

-Colleges and universities

-Strong people

-28-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Scarcity
-Liberals’ conduct
-Conservatives
-Lack of charisma
-President’s role
-Risner
-College graduates
-Stockdale’s conversation with Art van Dorn of New York Times
-Stockdale’s article

-Stockdale’s son

-Intended audience

-Origins of strength as POW

-Military ethic
-Selflessness
-Reprints
-Stanford University’s Alumni Magazine
-Importance
-Comparison with popular masses
-Baseball games
-Needs
-Religion
-Philosophy
-World affairs
-Leadership vacuum
-Leadership in world affairs
-US, Soviet Union
-Potential dangers
-Communist system
-Soviet Union, PRC
-Viciousness
-Destruction of American values
-Adm. Henry S. Monroe
-Conversation with liberal professor

-Stanford University

-Life in Communist system in US

-Incarceration of liberals

-Military influence

-29-

NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM

Tape Subject Log
(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Intolerance toward liberals

University education
-Stockdale’s outreach
-Effects on youth
-Stockdale’s son
-Ohio Wesleyan University

-Views on war

-Relationship with Stockdale

-Advisor

-San Diego

-Employment in steel mill

-Plans

-Travel in Europe

-Time off

-Young military officers

-Career pressures

-Speaking engagement at Los Angeles college

-Fonda
-Comparison with fighting Joe Louis

White House Dinner for POWs
-President’s conversations with Denton and Risner
-Defense Department [?]

-Guests

-President’s role

-National Security briefing

-Tour by Thelma C. (Ryan) (“Pat”) Nixon

-Reception

-Leslie T. (“Bob”) Hope

-Master of ceremonies

-Entertainment

-POW families

-Meetings with Denton, Risner, Gen. John B. Flynn


George Bond
-California Republican
-30-


NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY AND MUSEUM


Tape Subject Log

(rev. April-2011)

Conversation No. 891-4 (cont’d)

-Stockdale’s cousin

-Farm near Galesburg, Illinois

-Early aviation

-Knox County

-Bond family


Rose Garden

-Tulips


Stockdale’s visit to Connecticut

Stockdale and Scowcroft left at 4:39 pm.
Secret White House Tapes |

891–4

This recording is currently not available on millercenter.org. To listen to it, please email Mike Greco at mdg4u@virginia.edu

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